Home / N. Ex-vegans: why I gave up / Part IND
"I used to be vegan; I know what I'm talking about"
having been vegan gives experience of what it was like for that person, not authority on the moral question. The experience shows what was hard, and those difficulties deserve to be heard. But it doesn't show that animals stopped suffering, or that the diet is unworkable for others. Many ex-smokers went back to smoking, and none of them proves smoking is good for you.
Short answer
Your experience matters, and I'd like to hear what was hard. But it shows what it was like for you, not that animals stopped suffering or that it's impossible for everyone. Many people have been vegan for decades, in good health. The moral question remains the same: is it just to make animals suffer when it can be avoided?
For children
Someone who tried something knows what it was like for them. But if a friend tried skateboarding, fell and gave up, that doesn't mean skateboarding is impossible for everyone. And animals still feel pain, whether someone managed or not.
"When you were vegan, what led you to it? Has that reason stopped being true?"
Como pode aparecer
"I used to be vegan, I know what it's like."
"I went through that phase too."
"I was vegan for ten years, and I don't recommend it."
"Ex-vegan tells the truth about veganism."
"I stopped being vegan because I started feeling unwell." (which is N1)
"Most vegans give up." (which is L10)
The strongest version
"I was vegan for years. I know what I'm talking about: it doesn't work."
Strongest version (steelman):
- P1Someone who has lived through an experience knows more about it than someone who has only heard about it.
- P2I lived veganism and concluded it doesn't work.
- P3The opinion of those who lived it should carry more weight.
- CSo my conclusion that veganism doesn't work should be taken seriously.
P1 is true about one's own experience. The problem is the leap: one person's experience shows what it was like for them, not what it's like for everyone. And "it doesn't work" mixes two questions: whether it's hard for someone and whether it's right.
The argument is valid, but not sound: P3 turns personal experience into general authority.
Full answer
- a
Reconstruction and diagnosis
The argument uses experience to answer different questions:
Question Does experience answer it? What was it like for me? Yes Why was it hard for me? In part, if the cause was investigated Is it hard for everyone? No Do animals matter? No - b
Where the argument breaks
1. Experience isn't moral authority.
Having lived something gives knowledge about the experience, not about what is right. Someone who used to be vegan knows what it was like for them, but that doesn't answer whether it's just to exploit animals.
2. One person's experience doesn't speak for everyone.
There are millions of vegans, and many have been doing well for decades. If personal experience counted as proof, theirs would count too, and in far greater numbers.
3. Giving up is common, and the cause is usually lack of support.
In the Faunalytics survey, 84% of former vegetarians and vegans didn't take part in any group, and a third gave up within the first three months. Many cases of quitting say more about the lack of support than about the diet.
4. The reasons that led to veganism are still there.
If the person became vegan for the animals, it's worth asking whether those reasons have changed. They almost never have: what changed was the willingness to act on them.
5. Having been vegan can help the conversation.
Someone who used to be vegan knows the arguments and the difficulties. That experience is valuable for understanding why people give up, and for improving support for those who try.
- c
Data and sources
Source What it says Note Faunalytics, 2014 84% of former vegetarians and vegans didn't take part in groups; 34% gave up within three months; 37% are interested in going back Survey carried out in 2014 in the United States Melina, Craig and Levin, 2016 Well-planned vegan diets are appropriate at all stages of life Position of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics (United States) - d
The strongest counter-reply: those who never gave up don't know how hard it is
The most serious version says: vegans who never gave up don't know the difficulties of those who did, and speak from a comfortable place. Someone who has been through it has something to teach.
- e
Why the counter-reply doesn't reach the conclusion
It's true there's something to teach.
About the difficulties, about the lack of support, about what could have helped.
But teaching about difficulty isn't proving it's wrong.
The difficulty shows that more support is needed, not that animals stopped mattering.
Many vegans also went through difficulties.
And found ways out. Both experiences count.
- f
Back to the moral question
Even if the experience of those who gave up was very hard, the question would remain the same: is it just to make animals suffer and die when it can be avoided? The answer doesn't depend on who managed and who didn't.
Reasoning errors
Logical
Is the form valid?
Appeal to experience
Changing the question
Epistemological
Does the evidence support it?
Anecdotal evidence
Biases
Extrapolations
The principle being tested is: "someone who tried something and gave up knows more than someone who carries on".
If it applied to…An ex-smoker who went back to smokingTap to see
Would be an authority to say smoking is good for you
Absurd
If it applied to…Someone who dropped out of collegeTap to see
Would know that studying doesn't work
Absurd
If it applied to…Someone who quit the gymTap to see
Would know that exercise doesn't work
Absurd
Contradictions
So much that they became vegan.
But doesn't know, through tests or support, why it didn't work out.
But disregards the experience of those who carry on.
What the argument gets right
What is true
It's right that experience matters, that many vegans don't understand the difficulties of those who gave up and that those difficulties are real. Ex-vegans can help a lot in understanding what support is missing.
But
But experience shows how hard it was, not that it's wrong. The good answer is to listen, learn and ask what could have helped.
Connections
Usually comes before
Usually comes after